Since it's founding in 1997, the CYC-Net discussion group has been asked thousands of questions. These questions often generate many replies from people in all spheres of the Child and Youth Care profession and contain personal experiences, viewpoints, as well as recommended resources.
Below are some of the threads of discussions on varying Child and Youth Care related topics.
Questions and Responses have been reproduced verbatim.
Listen to thisHi,
My name is Darren and I have been involved in Child and Youth Care work for
20 years in a residential treatment setting. Recently our agency has been in
discussion about ways to strengthen our culture of care ... some of our
discussion centered around the use of our current Points and Level System
and if this was something helpful to our children. There were many mixed
opinions about the use of Points and Level Systems.
My question: Do Points and Level Systems really work?
I look forward to your discussion.
Thank you.
Darren Facen
Missouri
...
Darren
Please contact Karen VanderVen and the University of Pittsburgh. She has a
wealth of info on this topic. I, too work with children and adolescents in
care and our agency has completely removed points and levels from our
programming ... is there value in points and levels? ... I say the only
point is to torment the youth you work with. I don't suggest you do away
with consequences just the pluses and minuses.
Cindy S Austin
MS, CTRS
...
Personally, I think the more important question is: do points and level
systems benefit the children in care? They may work in terms of
behaviour-management, motivation/encouragement, learning, etc. if a staff
team is committed to the program and has the time and resources to maintain
it. However, how does a points or level system help a youth once they leave
care? Does it empower and enable them to gain intrinsic value from doing the
right thing? There is no one to continue the behaviour-modification program
for them once they are on their own, and what learning have they taken away
from experiencing the program in a residential setting? They have learned
that following-through with a desired activity/behaviour earns them a
reward, however once they leave and the desired activity no longer earns
them a reward, what is to motivate them to continue doing it? The goal
should be to change what actually motivates the youth, as opposed to
changing their behaviour for the short-term.
That said, I believe that we institutionalize our youth in care too much
already, and the more we can move away from that and teach them skills in a
way that will help them continue them when they leave us the better.
Good luck.
Jillian Hasler, CYW
...
See articles by Karen VanderVen at the University of Pittsburg. She has
written extensively on this, advocating that they be replaced by a robust
activity program. Also, any of the work by Charlie Applestein.
Jonathan J. Smith
...
Hello, Darren and All,
Do point and level systems work ? Absolutely not, as more and more people
are coming to realize. I recently did a workshop entitled, "You've Gotten
Rid of Your Point and Level System. Now What?" I asked for a show of hands
in the sizable audience of 'how many had ?' There were many hands.
I reprised many of the reasons that point and level systems are destructive:
- They make children have to earn things (relationships, activities) that
are the essence of treatment
- They cause children and youth to lose hope
- They are not objective (there is research on the subjective aspects of
'awarding' points)
- They teach overcompliance to some
- Behavior gets driven 'underground' – there is a subversive system of
acting out created
- Many decide the 'rewards' or 'privileges' aren't worth it and thus points
actually increase acting out behavior
- They pit children and youth against themselves and the staff
- They are clinically contraindicated in most examples, e.g. the formerly
abused
- They dehumanize the staff. Does one really want to spend time toting up
how many points Johnny lost because he didn't make his bed ? (or some such)
. Wouldn't be better to take him outside to look at the stars because you're
interested in astronomy ?
- Point and level systems are a 'folk culture' of their own and even a
language – 'pointese' – that is transmitted from one group and residential
program to another.
-They are not really tied to any justifiable rationale (e.g. applied
behavior analysis) and when asked what the rationale is, most people say,
"Well, that's just the way we've done it".
- Point and level systems violate the cultural norms and expectations of
many
There are many other reasons.
I have studied the deleterious effects of point and level systems for about
15 years, using a multiplicity of sources. I wrote my findings and
contentions up in a number of published articles that I put together in what
I call a "point pack". It has to be mailed by snail mail. Let me know if
you'd like one, Darren.
What to do instead ? Create a completely different culture in the milieu:
- Develop a relationship oriented program – kids will want to 'behave'
because of their relationships with staff.
- Increase the quality and quantity of the activity program. Youth should
not have to 'earn' activities; difficult behavior can be handled within an
activity. Some research showed that when a point and level system was
replaced with an activity program, the number of incident reports went down.
- Design a 'system' based on individual treatment goals for the children or
youth that they participate in setting.
One can be specific as to the instructional steps and activities to meet the
goals and ensure that the role of the staff is to help and guide the
youngsters in meeting them (there can actually be levels involving greater
responsibility) but they are reached not by amassing points, but rather by
attaining meaningful and useful outcomes.
There's a lot lot more about this of course.
Hope the above helps.
Karen VanderVen
...
Actually for me the points/level system has worked well in pretty well any
setting I have worked in be it a group home, class room (behavioural,
regular and M.E classroom with autistic children) It is used with my own son
and with much success....you just need to find what is the reward that works
best with each client.
Toni Morra
...
Yes. The level system brings order to the residence and the children are
aware of what they need to do in order to gain extra privs. which in turn
holds them accountable for their actions, behaviours. When used properly and
fairly the clients take to it without any issues, except of course when they
are unwilling to accept responsibility for their behavior ... and then they
will state that the level system needs to be changed. In order for it to be
successful all the staff need to be on board with the levels and the
consequences when it is not followed, or it won't work. When the staff
present themselves as a united front it will work, however we also need to
be willing to sit with the clients as a group and go over the different
levels and ask for the input ... and listen to them. When they feel that
they had a part in making the levels they are more willing to follow them,
and we have found that they are also working as a team among themselves by
assisting peers in reaching the different levels.
With ten children in one house, you need order and this particular house we
find it more of a positive in all areas. Now with that said, there will
always be a few clients who are unable to achieve different levels, this is
where we need to use our skills to help them reach levels that are created
specifically to their needs. Creativity is the key ... know your client.
United front.
Hope this helps you out.
Tammy McQuaid
...
I have also been a youth care worker for 20 years. I think a points and
level system works very well. But only for younger youth. Once they reach
the age of 15 or 15.5 though, another form of treatment needs to be looked
at, otherwise it could be degrading and the child may only behave only to
get the reward, not because it is the right thing to do. Perhaps a more
immediate reward system can be used at this point. For example, extension of
bed time?
Mister Home Chef
...
Hi my name is Maurice Bouvier. I been in the field 11 years and this system
does not work
...
Hi Darren,
What do you mean by work? work for whom, and for what duration?
In my experience, when children have no relationship with anyone in the
centre, the points system CAN be an effective way of holding on to them.
However, for the child who genuinely cannot contain his explosive outbursts,
this system can serve only to set the child up for a fall, creating a deeper
sense of worthlessness, and even more anger and violence.
You also run the risk of rewarding the child for doing the things that they
should be doing anyway, which can cause problems. I worked in a centre where
children were rated by each individual staff at the end of each shift and
the average score determined the level the child was at, and their
'privileges' for the next day. This was an awful system and I would never do
it again. It only served to divide the staff in the children's eyes and to a
situation where the less assertive staff bought the children off with high
scores.
My advice is use with caution, and get rid of the system as soon as
relationships will hold the children.
Regards
John in Ireland
...
Some reading around this issue – Eds.
Quotation: "We should not expect caring to be earned. We do not expect our
natural children to "earn" our love. We should not expect others to "earn"
our caring. We give our caring to others because we are caring, and we share
a common humanity."
David Austin and William Halpin
...
Some features on the web site:
https://www.cyc-net.org/CYC-Online
/cycol-1102-karen.html
https://www.cyc-net.org/quote/quote-148.htm
Bettelheim on Indulging the deprived child
https://www.cyc-net.org/CYC-Online
/cycol-0608-gannon.html
Case closed short story
https://www.cyc-net.org/CYC-Online
/cycol-1204-karen.html
The season for giving ... of yourself. Karen vanderVen
https://www.cyc-net.org/quote/quote-138.html
Brendtro et al
https://www.cyc-net.org/quote2/quote-1168.html
Henry Maier
...
The best response I received to this question is the book entitled
Punished by Rewards written by Alfie Kohn. Will challenge conventional
perspectives on rewards.
Patricia Mugridge
...
Hello Darren
Your inquiry about points and level systems kind of connects to the recent
discussion about how do we know if we have been helpful. For me any system
is only as good as the qualities and skills of all the people that work
within that system. Take a look at yourself and the people around you. what
do you and they believe? What does silence mean? How open are people? Will
or in what way will people support change? What education is needed to
support any change? What type of supervision is needed?
A program I was involved with had an extremely difficult time with the whole
issue about a culture of care. The group split into different camps where I
believe not only through words but behavior sought to maintain what they
believed was right. In the end no system would work and every problem was
proof of a system not working.
The point and level system I was involved with was kind of like one size
fits all(on paper). The curious thing was that workers seemed to apply it in
an individual way according to the context in which the situation occurred.
There were weaknesses in that it wasn't always used fairly and it could
become a tool to punish a child for a workers frustration.
We began to examine the question of how change occurs and look at an
individualized needs approach. We looked more acutely at the needs of the
family and how they might fit into part of a casework plan. Some people saw
this as a rather radical shift in focus although if you looked at the
history of dialogue within the program it would not seem to be a new
concept. the words limits and discipline became the poster words for the
points and level system.
People within a program really need to be honest with themselves and others
in any process of changing a program. I have seen people be successful
within a point and level system. maybe they would have been successful
anyway. I have seen youth fail within that system. the thought is often that
the program just couldn't meet his needs. By the way, what exactly were his
needs?
Charlie
...
Hi Darren,
I wrote my MA thesis on Point and Level Systems. I used a dataset from a
residential and day school and I found that one of the most strongest
relationships to performance was how long the youth had been in the program.
Kids performed well at the beginning and ends of their stay but not so well
in the middle.
I just ordered a book called Punished by Rewards: The Trouble With Gold
Stars, Incentive Plans, A'S, Praise, and Other Bribes that may also be
useful for you. If you're interested I can send you the reference list from
my thesis. Point and level systems are a really important topic and, besides
the work of Karen VanderVen, there has been little written on them.
Good luck!
Rachael
Newton Centre MA USA
...
I think, as with all approaches, it depends on the individual. This
particular approach is not my preference, but it sure works with some
children I work with: once you find out what motivates them, this is a tool
you can use to extinguish behaviours and promote new ones. From my
experience it works best when it is immediate and the child is involved in
creating the goals and evaluating themselves. Points and level systems can
easily be turned into something child-friendly..using images that the child
likes etc...
My two cents..
Jen
...
There is some valid points made as to why the points/level system do not
work but it is also how you follow up with each consequence both good
consequences and bad consequences and discuss with the child/client as to
why they earned the reward or lost the privilege.... I do not ever withhold
caring, affection or love from my son or clients.... for me it is always the
discussion as to why they have earned level or a points....It is not
necessarily about the points/levels, that is just tangible and right
away..it is the discuss that follows afterwards.
Toni Morra
...
Interesting comments, seems to be support for both sides. I think that
regardless of what method we use we must be sure that it is always in the
best interest of everyone involved. As caregivers we can't only think of
ourselves nor can we only think of the youth...we must consider the effects
our methods of giving care have on everyone.
Karen VanderVen – I am interested in a copy of your "point pack" if
possible.
Marsha Orien
...
Hi Darren
I guess it depends on your group and their dynamics.
I work with school age children in childcare programs and I had one group
that needed a little incentive. I used tokens and they earned them by
following rules, helping a friend, doing something without being
asked...They had 3 levels of choice where they could exchange tokens for a
privilege, extra time in an activity they liked or a small prize from my
treasure chest. It worked very well as it enforced values and they had goals
they could set and achieve. They could tangibly see the tokens fill up over
time... (I used Bristol board squares and just put stamps on them and used
small clear containers or ziplock bags to hold them).
A friend of mine tried a similar thing, but her group didn't really care,
until she made up teams. Each team would earn points if they collectively
did things and participated together. I think she also awarded individual
points for various good deeds that went towards the group. At the end of the
week the team got a prize. This group was pretty active and would fight and
argue a lot, so it worked better when she had them work together as a team
and encourage each other to stay focused and on track.
With that being said... if there are no problems why fix what ain't broke?
If what you are already doing is working and token/rewards are not needed
then why implement it?
By rewarding children with gifts it sometimes sends the wrong message, and
they won't always perform unless there is a reward involved. So if rewards
must be used often special privileges or extra time on an activity that they
enjoy may be the best option.
Good luck
Diana
Ontario
...
Check out Alfie Kohn's work on Beyond Punishment...another way of
saying what Karen has to say. He also has written a book on debunking
Homework....for the parents in the crowd.
Rick Kelly
Canada
...
I've seen many young people over the years come into programs and do what
they needed to do to achieve their points and gain their privileges but not
learn much about themselves or what they may need to change in terms of
their thinking and their actions. But they achieved the "bribe" if it was
worthwhile to them. Isn't it really about the work you do with the young
person beyond the points system that matters? If anything could be
considered valuable about a points system perhaps the young person's
accomplishment demonstrate that they do have the ability to set a goal for
themselves and take the steps to achieve it.
More commonly in my experience the level board in programs where I worked
seem to be filled with consequences for misbehaviour and for some young
people they didn't seem to think they'd ever get out of the hole they dug or
it was a great way to play the blame game and blame staff for their
troubles.
I know of a residential program where they recently got rid of their points
and levels. The young people having been setting goals, developing action
plans and doing very well without the points and levels. However, a senior
child and youth counsellor had a major meltdown because she confused not
having a level system with there being no consequences for the youth.
Gord
Barrie, Ontario, Canada
...
Hi guys,
Interesting thread. I have tried various reward systems over the years and
ended up being more fascinated with the imaginative manner in which some
youth subverted the system. For example some tasks could be sub-contracted
with a more appealing reward substituted by the young person.
This form of intervention is good for producing compliant wage slaves unable
to imagine possible worlds beyond their exploitation. The down side is that
you need to lock up or label as mentally ill those that refuse to play the
game. Actually isn't that what we do? The reward of a mutually caring
relationship is now what I would aim for.
Cheers
Jeremy
Scotland
...
I have to agree with Patricia Mugridge in that Punished By Rewards
is an awesome book.
Mister Home Chef
...
The points and level system is a very interesting in my perspective.
Any system that is in place is only as useful as the understanding of the
individuals utilising it. Is it used as punitive rationalism, where do power
dynamics meet with learning and empowerment, what is the advantage in such a
system with young people who are already disempowered and disconnected due
to their individual life experiences? Is the system more beneficial to
professional individuals as to the individuals being supported? In my
experience it tends to be the easier option to promote the deficits of any
system rather that the potential aspects. How many organisations in reality
promote behavioural modification programmes that focus on the potential and
personalisation of the individual whilst addressing the morale/motivation
and esteem of the worker? Both can actually be promoted integrally in which
learning is ongoing and paramount where relational depth and empathy
continue to build as a result.
Regards
Sarabell
UK
...
I currently work in a school-based mental health system with children
between 6-12 years old.
I need help proving that indeed point systems and level systems are not
effective. I have read several articles, books such as The Acting Out
Child by Hill Walker, School Based Assessment and treatment of ADHD
by James Swanson, and of course Russell Barkley's Manual on ADHD and the
Defiant Child to name only a few. A summer treatment program developed
by a William Pelham has received several model program awards and again
students receive points that later translate into rewards. What I like about
his program is that it incorporates an intense mix of focused academic work
with sports. Since many kids who we have contact with have difficulties with
gross and fine motor skills, the sports, attempts to provide an O.T therapy
through sports play.
In addition, most kids I would say 70% or more are diagnosed ADHD so this
intense physical activity mixed with academic work seems ideal. Point
systems in addition when coupled with response cost (fines) have been quoted
to be as successful as medication for children with ADHD (parents and
counsellors alike love this fact) Now Pelham has resented this quote and
indicates that his program will reduce the amount of medication the children
need. I use response cost in my program, as it seems less intrusive then
implementing a time-out, resulting in the child to lose academic time.
Here's a list of some of the benefits of token or point systems:
Advantages of the Chip/Point System
1) Token systems permit teachers to draw on more powerful rewards for
children in managing child behaviour than mere social praise and attention
will permit. Hence, greater and more rapid improvements in compliance can
often be achieved beyond what social attention could accomplish.
2) Token systems are highly convenient reward systems. Chips or tokens can
be taken anywhere, dispensed at anytime, and used to earn virtually any form
of privilege or tangible incentive.
3) Token rewards are likely to retain their value or effectiveness
throughout the day and across numerous situations. In contrast, children
often become satiated quickly with food rewards, stickers, or other tangible
reinforcers, resulting in a loss of motivating power as a behaviour-change
tool once the child is satiated. Because tokens can be exchanged for an
almost limitless variety of rewards, their effectiveness as reinforcers is
less likely to fluctuate with the children's level of satiation to a
particular reward.
4) Token systems permit a more organized, systematic, and fair approach to
managing children's behaviour. The system makes it very clear what children
earn for particular behaviours and what amount of tokens or chips is
required for access to each privilege or reward. It also makes it equally
clear to all staff. This precludes the arbitrariness often seen in typical
child management by direct staff where a child may be granted a reward or
privilege on the spur of the moment because the adult is in a good mood
rather than because the child has earned it. Similarly, it prevents staff
from denying rewards that have been legitimately earned simply because the
child misbehaved once during that day.
5) Token systems result in increased teacher and child worker attention to
appropriate child behaviour and compliance. Because the staff must dispense
the tokens, they must attend and respond more often to child behaviours they
might otherwise have overlooked. The children also make teachers more aware
of their successes or accomplishments so as to earn the tokens.
6) Token systems teach a fundamental concept of society, and that is that
privileges and rewards, as well as most of the things we desire in life,
must be earned by the way we behave. This is the work ethic that teachers
naturally wish to instil in their students: The harder they work, and the
more they apply themselves to handling responsibilities and academics, the
greater will be the rewards the children receive.
7) Use of group or individual contingency programs have been found to be one
of the most effective means of reducing inappropriate classroom behaviours A
token economy is based on the premise that Children with early on-set
conduct problems come from homes, which they are not exposed, to consistent
and contingent environments.
If the points system for treatment of ADHD or any externalizing disorder is
damaging then I want nothing to do with it, and I will give it up tomorrow.
Can someone direct me to any evidence that it is ineffective (not opinions,
rather research). The mental Health facility in which I work prides itself
on proving one's methods then having at least 3 others implementing the
program with similar results. The only way I could drop my program is if I
can prove that another program is more beneficial or that it is damaging to
the children whom I serve. Of course, we don't just use points, we use
Functional behavioural assessments that evolve into treatment plans,
relationships, unconditional caring and concern for the students, and social
skill training via Goldstein or M Shure.
Respectfully;
Jason
...
Hi Folks,
Gordan raises an interesting point about the work that you do in addition to
administering the levels system. I remember reading about an early attempt
at a residential program based on a token economy and a levels system. The
program was called Achievement Place. It was highly successful. So
successful that soon Achievement Place II was launched. You can imagine the
looks of consternation when the second program did not seem to be working at
all. It had the same programming, the same reward system, the same token
economy, the same everything. Well, almost the same everything. Further
analysis revealed the missing element. In the first program when a child
earned tokens it was used by staff as an opportunity to both reinforce
effort and to create relationship. each time tokens were awarded they were
accompanied by positive social interaction with caregivers. In the second
program staff were dutiful in awarding the tokens, but functioned more as
accountants than caregivers. They did not engage in the positive social
interactions that were part of the first program.
When points, tokens, levels or whatever are a tangible recognition of the
individuals efforts and reflect a caring relationship they can be very
powerful. In and of themselves they don't amount to much.
Relationship is primary.
A further thought on levels systems. I once took over administration of a
residential program that used a levels system. I noticed that residents
worked hard to get to the top level, but once there quickly dropped back. My
sense was that being at the top created a great deal of anxiety. Now the
only way to move was down. Kids seemed to choose to lessen the anxiety by
choosing to "fail". The solution was relatively simple. An additional level
was added above the former top level. This meant that kids who were
operating at the previous top level were able to remain comfortably at that
level.
Doug Estergaard
Vancouver, Canada
...
Points and levels do not replace human love, caring and nurturing. We have
taught rats to navigate through mazes in order to receive a reward and it
works time and time again. Human are much more complex than rats and it will
take a lot more than points and levels (artificial rewards) to change
behaviours that result from things such as abuse, neglect, trauma etc.
Culture, can we speak to how the system neglects to consider how cultural
differences impacts the outcome of assessment, intervention, and treatment.
I work in marginalized communities, disorganized communities where cultural
norms differ from social majority, however we use the same assessment tool,
the same formulas to determine intervention and treatment approaches which
are used in mainstream white society. In organized communities/functional
families (to have a son or daughter involved in criminal activity is
embarrassing and shameful to the family and community) the youth often feels
shamed and embarrassed and the consequence of the reaction to the behaviour
is enough to have the youth positively adjust their behaviour. In
disorganized communities under dysfunctional family conditions criminal
behaviour might be the social norm and instead of being shameful and
embarrassing may be seen as social status. I will argue that if we do not
include the social cultural factors of such situation into our assessments,
interventions and treatment plans than they are all but guaranteed to fail.
I would really like to hear from others concerning their views on cultural
differences and how it impacts the work we do.
Thank you,
James Hartley
